What is it like to be a spy in real life? Do you get an Aston Martin like James Bond 007? Should spies be allowed to break the law while undercover? What should the relationship between government and intelligence look like? Do we overestimate or underestimate the power and reach of Russia's FSB and China's intelligence service?

On today's special episode of Leading, Rory & Alastair are joined by Eliza Manningham-Buller and John Sawers to discuss what it's really like to lead MI5 and MI6, respectively.

This episode was recorded before the IS-Khorasan attack in Moscow.

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00:00 Intro
02:10 How Eliza and John were recruited into the secret service
08:45 The personality types that make a good spy
12:47 How the threat from terrorism has changed over the years
15:34 Managing the intelligence services during the Iraq War
26:42 Successful operations & double agents
37:17 Popular spy representation - does it help or hinder recruitment?
40:02 Post 9/11 intelligence operations
44:55 The UK's biggest objective in counter terrorism today
51:21 Why not just overthrow a corrupt regime?
54:27 Thoughts on China/Taiwan, Russia/Ukraine & Gaza/Israel & Trump
1:04:10 Worst case scenario in the next 5-10 years
1:06:55 What are you optimistic about?
1:09:05 De-brief